I really hope a moderator is watching. Question set-up...I have a Chauvet Obey 40 but I am swapping it for a Elation operator 192. Here is why...I hooked up a Korg padKONTROL to the Obey 40. Got a lot of scenes and so I played the padKONTROL just like a drum machine. The lights and scenes flickered exactly to my lightning fast rudiments, even if I stayed on one scene the COLORado 3, for example, would flicker exactly as attacked. But when I recorded a sequence onto my Korg M-3 and played it back what I got was mud. So I recorded on a stand alone floppy disk midi sequencer/filer. The results were a lot better but not reliable. I then made sure the midi signal was passing THRU the M-3 by hooking the Obey 40 to the thru output of the M-3 and played the padKONTROL. It was flawleaa. Any ideas?

I'll try replying again. I thought this posted earlier.

Without a data analyzer, or connecting your M-3 to my Opcode Studio4 and then to Master Tracks Pro 6 for more thorough analysis, it's hard to say exactly what is going on.

What other stuff is the M-3 sending/storing/recording?

Keep in mind that a single controller(padKontrol) to the DMX device is going to be about as plain vanilla as you can get. So, this proves for sure that you at least know what you're doing as far as layer 1 issues are concerned.

Direct from padKONTROL to the DMX device(with MIDI) gives desired results. So, you know your MIDI routing and MIDI basics.

Recording to the M-3, then playing it back gives less than desirable results. Are we just talking SLOW response? At this point, I'm sure there are other things in the sequence, and each MIDI command is a 3-byte word.. If the M-3 is adding to the stream, that could be causing grief. To really get to the bottom of that, you've got to dump into something else such as a computer based progarm so you can really break things down.

Going to the floppy-based system results in better performance. Not perfect, but better. OK. Where is the reliability issue? How is it manifesting itself?

So, then you trigger your padKONTROL and go from its MIDI OUT to the M-3 MIDI IN, then out THRU the M-3's MIDI THRU. Folks, for those of you who do NOT know MIDI, this is in fact the correct way to do things. ztar57 has in fact done his cabling correctly based on his dscription, so it is NOT a cabling issue.

So, padKONTROL OUT to M-3 MIDI IN to M-3 MIDI THRU to Obey 40: works fine.

Sounds like the sequencing is adding something into the stream. But what?

Does the Obey 40 restrict itself ot a single MIDI channel?

Here's a wacky thing. It's not totally related. I wrote things song and it involved me using the volume CC to fade in the sound. I used this at least 4 times. The target synth for this was my prototype(yes, a prototyle) E-Mu Proteus 1. If I left the Proteus 1 display on that MIDI channel, the unit would BOG like mad when that CC data hit it as it was dragging on drawing the CC values(it would show volume 000-127 and was scrolling as fast as it could). Only that MIDI channel dragged. But, let's say I set the device onto MIDI channel 9(which I used for my drum machine) which the Proteus was told to not listen for, I had NO problems with that volume CC stuff.

I just can't fathom what the M-3 is loading onto the MIDI cable. If all you're doing is recording INTO the M-3 and then playing it back, there really shouldn't be an issue, especially if that's all that is all that you're doing.

I think you're leaving out some important information, but that's not because you're holding back, but because I think you don't know the answers either.

Do this: record the same thing locally onto a fresh sequence on the M-3 as best as you can. See if you have the same playback results on the Obey 40. Start with something slow,, just for general testing, the increase it.

You may need to get a MIDI router with filtering. My MX-8's can take an incoming MIDI signal and then process it and distribute it to multiple outs as well as filter out unwanted stuff. But these have been long discontinued and are hard to find and NO I won't give up any of the three I have!

Ok Chris...I will try to be as detailed as possible. First, thanx for giving this some thought. Second, I got rid of the Obey 40. My new superior op192 will be in my hands in 2 days.
Like I said, using the Korg padKONTROL via midi to the 40 was amazing. I tapped 8 pk pads, representing 8 scenes, as fast as I wished and the scenes, thus the lights, responded flawlessly. Since the pk pads were set to momentary, striking the same pad, thus the same scene, thus the same light, again and again, caused flickering blackouts that reacted exactly to my every quick or slow attack. I then tried changing the velocity values on 8 pads of the pk. First to 127. Then to 1. The 40 responded exactly the same to v 1 and v 127. All 8 scenes I programmed into 8 pads of pk responded to my exact attack. So, for example, a white light scene I would trigger when a snare hit happened, no matter how fast or slow the snare attack came, the white light scene happened flawlessly with the fore mentioned set-up. So, on to recording that midi information.
As I said, I made sure that the midi signal would pass thru the Korg M-3. PK midi out to M3 midi in. From M3 midi thru to 40. Played the pk live. Worked perfect.
Now, the M-3 sequencer is 16 channels. Each of those channels has the option to send or not send midi data out the midi out port. The options are... internal, both, external 1 and external 2. So I set all sequencer channels to internal, save one. Now, no midi data, except the one midi channel I chose, was sent out the midi out of the M-3. I set the 40 midi channel to the same channel I was going to use on the sequencer. I then recorded with the 40 hooked up to the thru out so as to visualize my attack. I then hooked up the 40 to the midi out port of the M-3. I hit the play button. About 25% played back. Absolutely no flickering fast speed stuff. Just the occasional midi trigger of a scene. Nothing random. When a scene did trigger, it was in the right place at the right time. So, I tried several different midi channels. Same results.
Next, I took the M-3 out of the loop and replaced it with an old school stand alone floppy disk midi data filer/sequencer. The results were the same in all respects except the data filer did manage to capture some fast attacks (flickering lights=drum rolls)and more of the various scene triggers.
Now, from the data filer, there is absolutely no other midi signal being sent. Only the data that was recorded was what it sent.
It is a curious thing. What could possibly be the difference? Why does the 40 responds to direct live attack and not to direct recorded attack from a "potentially isolated" pure midi source (M-3)or a "for sure" pure direct recorded midi source (floppy disk data filer/1 channel sequencer).
Another clue to this mystery is...When I use my M-Audio Axiom 61 keyboard hooked directly into the 40, the scene triggering is just as bad as the sequenced stuff. Only the power of the pk could make the 40 do my bidding.
Is there such a thing as a midi signal booster? Something that is not dealing with velocity but rather signal strength?

Wow.

What you're saying is making perfect sense to me. We've got zero misunderstanding. It does clarify every single thing going on, again, at least to me. But then again, I've done super complicated MIDI work and yours doesn't qualify as complicated.

I am confused though about a few things, but I'm on your side with the confusion.

PK to controller: no problem.
PK in to M-3, but THRU to controller: NO problem.

As soon as you record, you're getting problems. That's odd.

As I understand it, the DMX Operator(that I have) as well as other ADJ controllers, and I would assume(possibly incorrectly) about the Obey 40 is that they work off MIDI note ON only, not velocity or CC data, just the MIDI channel(for port-level filtering) and then the MIDI Note ON value.

One thing I can't understand is why you're getting the flickering. On one hand it makes sense, especially if you have a super short fade time, but if you're hitting Pad 1 and the again, you're triggering the same scene, so I honestly wouldn't expect flickering. but if this does what you want, then hey, super cool. Sometimes we get those "happy mistakes" and we capitalize on them. So, if it works for you, then hey, who am I to say "bad". If it's getting the results you want exactly as you want them, heck, why change, right?

Well, in your case, you MUST change, because you don't want to play this live, you want to sequence it, and I totally understand this type of mentality. It's great to run the tests as you did with the pk right to the Obey 40, to show "hey, MIDI works). Now, the real tests are what are failing for you: playback and recording of MIDI data.

What is clear to me is that you've got the PK programmed correctly. Why is that? Your playing of it is in fact triggering the Obey 40. If your MIDI channel and note values were off, then well, you'd have failed right there. That's not the case here.

This is where I come back to something I said earlier, or may have not. I'm gonna say it now just to be done with it. I dislike hardware sequencers. It's not because they suck, it's just not how I prefer to work. I need better granular investigative tools, which is where a computer-based system works for me. I need that advanced visual feedback and ability to pick and choose what I can look at easier. Then again, I'm used to it.

I just get the feeling that not everything is being recorded or the recording systems are adding data or filtering data or perhaps losing data?

While not perfect, see if this idea is possible:
ASSUMING the PK is using channel 16, and the DMX controller is using channel 16 for MIDI, AND assuming the M-3 can both playback local channel 16 as a synth or drum set or something IN ADDITION to sending MIDI channel 16 OUT one of the MIDI out ports, I would say if you're hearing it on playback, it has recorded it properly.

As far as signal boosters: I am not aware of any devices on the market at this point in time. With MIDI, it's generally frowned upon due to the reason you'd really need to use one is to push that signal down super long cables, and MIDI really doesn't want cables longer than 50 feet. I don't allow or use cables longer than 15 feet, and the only reason I use some cables that long is in my keyboard rig to facilitate the wiring harnesses.

The MIDI filter is not using any sort of time code and lacks any sort of real sync functionality. I doubt the M3 supports any time code issues as well. I doubt either are trying to sent MTC, clock, sync or even SPP(song position pointers, usually used with SMTPE to MTC sync)

I don't think a booster is going to address the issue. I think something is getting lost in the recording/playback aspect. Do you have a laptop or computer with some MIDI/audio production software, such as ProTools, MOTU, Cubase, Stienberg, Sonar or something else? I just want to get more granular with this stuff.

Regardless, a MIDI booster would only increase the strength of the signal in total, good or bad, in its entirety, with possibly a tiny bit of delay. This wouldn't address your problem at all.

You wouldn't happen to be in the Sacramento area? If I was properly motivated, I'd let you hook up to my old Mac with Master Tracks Pro and we could take a good look at this problem. I think I gotta re-install DECK and Master Tracks Pro though. It's running an ancient version of Pro Tools. Might use my MacBook Pro and Pro Tools 7.4.2cs2 under Mac or PC, or Sonar under PC and dive deeper.

Something isn't right, and it's on the recording and playback side of things. Why it is not right is probably something you're not able to figure out, nor can I right now. I've always had little to no problem having what I sequence in to be what I get right back out, even in complex sequences using over 200 MIDI channels on one machine(Opcode Studio4's and Studio64XTC's), and many OUTS using multiple MIDI channels.

There used to be a device that was a spider that had blinking eyes. It was a novelty item that was designed to be a basic MIDI tester and cheesy effect thing. This one guy I knew bought like 20 of them and built a crude MIDI distro to repeat the signal out to these 20 spiders, which he used in turn to appear to be coming OUT of his kick drum. It looked really cool.

What I'm thinking is there should be a relatively crude DIY basic MIDI tester. Something that plugs into the port and lights up. Personally, I want to see what is being captured/recorded. This would involve the PK and also the sequencers. To the PK direct to the computer and then see what happens on computer playback. Assuming the same thing is in the sequencer(s), it should also be able to be captured via the computer and show what came in is what went out.

The pk pads are set to momentary. So when I strike a pad over and again it is, via midi, like striking the same scene button over and again. If this is done on the Obey 40, that is, press the same scene button twice. You get blackout. The flickering , may be the result of rapid scene on/blackout/on/blackout etc. The only other explanation would be that the 40 is reacting to the pk momentary mode. Actually, that does sound more like it.
As for the term flickering, it represents the physical attributes of the lights coming on and going out at a high rate of speed. Flashing or just turning on and off would work as well.
As for a visual inspection of midi data coming out of the M-3 midi port out. My data filer has such a l.e.d. monitor. It flickers the drum attack I recorded on the M-3 perfectly. So the data filer is receiving the exact performance I recorded on the M-3. It also plays it back better, but not perfect.
The midi keyboard hooked direct into the 40 is no better than the M-3 playback. Only the pk can control the midi note application of the 40.

This may all be academic. The Operator 192s features are superior. Perhaps its midi note protocols are superior as well.
Just as a side note, (no pun intended), It was you, Chris, that steered me away from MyDMX. I read as many forum discussions as I could find in regards to MyDMX. Everyone seems to agree that software applications is not what the pros use. You said that yourself. You said that the pros prefer consoles. I know that I would rather not have my laptop on stage with me. So what you said about what the pros use made sense.
Also, there seems to be an agreement that MyDMX has some, maybe not many, but some issues.
I am about to introduce a new genre of synth rock instrumentals. I play a Ztar. Check out Starrlabs. It is me, a female keyboardist, and a digi drummer. Very high level speed and musical knowledge of scales and dissonant sound. 16 note per second kinda stuff whenever I want. Which is not to often. I just need to make a good first impression with 3 colorado 3s, 2 ADJ white pearls and 6 ledRAINs. I know that is not much but it is the best that can be done for the moment.
I think the elation show designer 1 fits the roll perfectly as a controller. At least from what I have read.
But, we are learning to crawl before we walk. So I am hoping that the Operator 192 will suffice for local and regional. With what we are doing, issues are not an option.
I thank you for your efforts in this matter.
I think I might have a pending problem in regards to the op192 memory stick software. But I will examine it carefully before I ask for help.
Thanx again. Gary King

I never claimed to be a salesperson. I am certainly not. I'm a technician, an engineer, many things but not a salesman.

In regards to the "MyDMX vs a console", we're talking about a console worth a few thousand bucks, not something in the low-range. And let's face it, the Obey 40, DMX Operator 192 and even my DMX Operator are not "ideal" consoles, but for someone who needs simple stuff, they do the job just fine. Even so, that doesn't mean that these tools aren't valid and functional. As can be done, you can get a lot done with even a DMX Operator if one plans ahead and uses it properly.

Me, I could care less what the pros use, mainly since I'm an audio guy. As you read though, talking with my lighting friends, none want to use a software platform. Could be an "old habits die hard" thing. I'm hesitant to go to a digital audio console for my main FOH console, sticking with my tried and true A&H ML5000. I suppose lighting is like audio: once you know your basics on the good stuff, it's just a matter of what features do they cram into what, but analog consoles are basically all the same. Put me in front of one and I'm a happy dude, regardless of brand.

What it comes down to is the right tools for the job that you want to accomplish. Some people are getting some amazing results using MyDMX and even some really limited function consoles. I helped engineer quite a few albums using an analog 1/2" 8-track deck and Mackie 1604's and 1604 VLZ's, and damnned if you can tell that apart from someone who spend a million bucks on their recording with top of the line gear. Yes, we CAN get amazing results if we know our gear and how to maximize it.

Back to focusing on MyDMX. No doubt is has issues. It's designed to be an entry level software platform as an alternative to perhaps a big console investment.

What is the eventual goal? Is it strictly triggering? If so, ASSUMING that the Operator 192 is sufficient, the same can be done via MyDMX. Of course, as SerraAva has indicated, and is a policy I generally support, if you're gonna run MyDMX, it should be on a dedicated machine and that's the main app for that system. Your MIDI sequencing should be done on another machine, as MyDMX as a trigger device voa MIDI and sequencing do not mix well. A better solution would be CompuWare, which is more oriented towards this sort of thing.

But what is the function of triggering? Are you using this for "real time performance based triggering" or are you using it for scene changes within a song as done by a sequencer? Both have their places in the mix of things, but it depends on what your objectives are. Neither answer is "more right or more wrong", because it's what you need to do that determines right or wrong.

There's always the issue of dedicated hardware over a computer based platform. Dedicated hardware is typically going to be just that, and no "distractions". Theoretically, it should guarantee predictable and reliable performance night after night, day after day, hour after hour. How many times can we say that with our computers? Sometimes we get crashes for really no justifiable reason on our computers, Mac and PC(hell, let me throw Linux in there too just to annoy some more folks).

Maybe it comes down to something being added to your data signal? I certainly understand and agree with momentary control as you just need to trigger: boom, note ON and velocity. Drum sound decay rapidly, you generally speaking don't need the note off's. One of my cheapie samplers has a few modes. I think this would be "trigger" mode, as opposed to gate or the other mode. I can't recall, it's not in front of me at the moment. Ideally, whatever you send out via the PK should be what is recorded. Chances are, you're playing things in a rapid style, hence only needing momentary response. Why would something add more data to the stream?

I can also see that you're trying to minimize problems as well as load. On-Board sequencer: good idea, BUT risky. However, I think you've probably got a back-up solution to back-up your data in case something bad happens. I juts get that impression that you're operating in a mode where you have safety and redundancies of some sort integrated.

It could very well be that despite you using momentary mode, the sequencers could be adding note off commands, which could conflict. Without diving deeper than you're currently able to, it's impossible to say.

Addressing your laptop on the stage: Seen it a million times, figuratively speaking of course. So easy to have problems, crashes and other issues(like, Ashley Simpson on SNL busted for lip syncing when they launched the wrong song). But, it can be done reliably too, but most people won't take the time to ensure the systems are optimized and hardened and NOT CHANGED during production dates. Even so, feces do occur!

I think you may have issues for a a bit trying to find the right solution. You may end up having to go with a software solution, or you may have to go to a more costly console solution. You're right on with trying to stir up some dialog here. I think if the Operator 192 doesn't work out, you should hire a consultant that is a theater/stage/concert lighting professional. Yes, you may be "below his/her level", but they have more experience and exposure than you do, and may have access to all sorts of other gear and may be willing to let you try stuff out.

I think once we know what your intended application is, it would help. For me, I need it for scene recall as needed, not as performer driven platform.

Post a URL for your site. What I was looking for at the moment is too manufacturor oriented.

I agree that quality work does not need top of the line stuff...for the most part.
The theory of "note off" signals is interesting. But where would that info be coming from? The seq. is only replaying pk.
I wish to write the light show as I write my music show. It inspires me. As I have only now have come to realize. Auto trig sounds great if I can make it work reliably.
I am a quick study in matters I can afford to toy with. But I do not mind being under-estimated.
Thanx again for your help. I just got my Operator 192. First surprise...why is there a midi/dmx switch in the back? Second surprise...Why is there a midi out port. These are not in the pdf manual I studied.
Well, good fortune in your audio endeavors Chris.

Where is the MIDI Note off coming from? The sequencer, most likely. I'd have to scope out what my Roland MS-1 is doing, as well as my Roland Octopad II Pad 80(I just finished setting up my electronic drums, I'm debating on taking snaps or not, as it has changed since the web site photos were taken)

I know at least internally, my MS-1, which is a cheapie sampler, I can have it loop the sample until I hit it again to stop it, but I think this also will just play out the sound if I leave it alone. I have a hit and it plays mode, and a hit and hold mode. I'd have to got through it again.

It's clear to me that something is being added to the stream or mis-interpretted at the sequencer.

But if you're doing performance triggering, I don't think it matters, just run the PK or whatever right out and see what happens.

But I'm more for sequencing, mainly since I like a degree of control. I want a degree of sepparation from the performers. But I understand how the smaller guys work. I'm drowning in that sort of junk right now. I say junk because what I'm doing right now is sort of like the musical equivalent of a colostomy bag. Trust me, if it wasn't for that bag, they couldn't carry a tune, and you know what goes into a colostomy bag, and hence, it is a perfect metaphore for the music I'm dealing with.

I just wish I had more time to spare to dedicate to seeing how my gear would perform in a similar situation. I have the DMX Operator available, but I don't feel like racking it, and I have dimmer packs that I could see what is going on, or maybe have a mover have a coronary, or freak out a 64 LED Pro so I can see what's going on. But mine would be performance only mostly. But I can test sequencing as well.

I'd probably have to see what the heck you're doing, maybe send me a sequence or some very rudimental score for me to replicate at least in a sequencer. I don't think I have anything better to do later on next week.

Saturday: another gig. Sunday: Unload the truck completely, then do a FULL proper load. That might take some time. Monday is slammed with contracts and tech support, Tuesday is back to video editing. I gotta get the web site updated. I have at least 4 events to try to get onto the web site.

As far as the MIDI/DMX switch? I think that may activate the MIDI out? I know my A&H console goes bonkers when I use the switch for serial/MIDI. I really gotta update the firmware in that soon. Maybe I do that tomorrow... maybe not. I got a multi-day event in August, I might do it then unless I can get some help next week to set up my console to just handle this.

Just an update...I got some kind of updated version of the 192. It has a few new features.
1. An extra usb port on the back that sends midi data.
2.The midi out just sends out midi data.
3. The midi/dmx switch transforms the 192 into a simple midi controller.
Interesting. Not as interesting as the Show designer 1 or 2. But someone probably would find a use for those enhancements. I think it would have been more fun to have the footswitch.
But that was Elations call.

ok...the midi triggering on the Elation Operator 192 is as bad about receiving sequenced midi data as the Chauvet Obey 40 was. It does fine with live midi data.
That is ok though. I found that sound triggering, while not as fast, will be good enough. Sound at around a velocity of 30% will step trigger 8 scenes in the currently set up bank or step trigger 240 scenes in a chase at a rate of about 3 per second. Of course, that is not real fast. But I will take it. The low note of b0 is most helpful as a trigger sound. Between live and sequenced sound there is no difference. If a scene triggers live then it will trigger sequenced. If not live then not sequenced. The memory sticks work well. I was able to format them and get the software up and running. Even saved an Operator 192 bulk dump and stored it on my computer.
The Operator 192 is the only dmx controller at its price range that can bulk dump and receive data and use sound to ACCURATELY trigger scenes in a bank or in a chase. Yea, there is finally a modest smile on my face.

Don't you have an audio input port on there? You could use that to reliably send your chase trigger signal, right?

Just trying to ehnance it.

If it was me, I would be using MyDMX, but I'm having good results with it and spare laptops to help realize things. Since I have the luxury of hardening some systems, I can really crank down and get exactly what I need these days.

At least you're finding success and letting ideas work for you now. Congratulations. Any chance of a URL foryour stuff and maybe a video in the future?

Since you asked I will let you know something when I am ready to open up to world opinion. For now the show is a work in progress.