Judging by color temperature (hard to do with YouTube videos), those are most certainly NOT 250w or even 300w arc sources. Also note at about 1:36 in the video the one light pans across the towards the camera and the beam can clearly be seen through haze while the rink is lit by some LED fixtures of some sort. A 250w source won't cut haze like that at that angle and over that distance. I can't quite tell what type of fixtures they are, but I can tell they are higher end then AMDJ from the size/build of them. Look like Design Spots or Macs.

Why not try for some Power Spot 575s. They are discontinued now, but should be able to find a pair for under 5 grand. Might also try a pair of Accu Spot 575s. Again, should be able to find a pair for under 5 grand (not sure on your tax status either, sales tax is quite a bit when talking large amounts of money). Also keep in mind that an Accu Spot 300 doesn't have a 300w lamp in it, just has more features then an Accu Spot 250.

You might also try something like 1 575w fixture and a few 250w fixtures. Put the 575w center ice and use it as the focal point with 250s around it. If you get a few more bucks, you could even do a 575w with 4 250s around it in the corners of the ice. I would just hate to see you buy a bunch of 250s and they don't work out like you need them to. I personally would shoot for 575s. You can always add more later vs spending money on a product that doesn't work like you need it. Hopefully you can wait till some time next week when I shoot out a Vision 250 vs a Power Spot 575 IE vs 19 degree 575w S4 Leko. This will give you a better idea intensity wise what you are looking at.

It sounds to me like this place needs to have a professional come in and do some consulting because it doesn't seem like they are going to be able to realize their objectives with their budget.

In my case, since I don't deal with lighting, I get do deal with audio. As the guy who is gonna not only buy but use it as well, I know what I am going to have to spend to make it happen.

Likewise with lights, you have someone like SerraAva who is most likely doing the entire evaluation and determination process. Not sure if he's doing the actual purchasing or not, but he's definately doing a lot of the using.

Hey, at least you have budgetting. I got a call for a show that expected full lights, big console and all the goodies for $200. I couldn't take the job. I would have lost just on the drive down putting diesel in my truck.

I think your powers that be are not entirely clued in but at least they realize they are going to have to spend some serious bucks, just they don't know exactly yet.

Buy smart and buy stuff that you can move around rather than replace as you get additional funding down the line. SerraAva is right in those regards, and it's the same type of ideal I strive for: Smart purchases now prevent wasting of money then, now or in the future. Sure, eventually you'll have to replace them but that's a totally different discussion that doesn't apply here.

Okay, here are the photos. This is from the left of the photo to the right, a PS 575 IE freshly lamped, a Vision 250 with about 1,000 hours on it, and an extended life 575w 19 degree S4 leko. The first batch of shots are from 10' out.




Now, on the white, the PS is the brightest and the 250 is not as bright as the S4 leko looks 'whiter'. In the red, the S4 catches up to the PS, which is to be expected since it has a much lower color temperate. The leko is using R27. The Vision looks orange, because it is indeed orange and not a red like the other two. Closest color that matched in its color wheel. The blues, S4 in R80, the Vision catches up to the S4 because of its higher color temperature. The PS pulls way ahead again, thanks to color temperature.


This is white from 24' out. As can clearly be seen, the Vision fades away to almost nothing next to the S4 and the PS.


This is white with PS on the left and Vision on the right. Again, Vision at this distance just can't keep up at all.


This is Vision on the left and S4 on the right. Keep in mind, the 575 in the S4 is 130% brighter then the lamp in the DJ Spot. So the DJ would have been not as bright as the Vision at this point.



The last two images are PS on the left and Vision on the right. Again, the 250 just doesn't have enough power at this distance.


Hopefully now you can see that 250s really aren't going to be useful in your application, especially when it comes to the red. If anyone would like to see something else, let me know before 5:30 PM eastern time. I will be happy to run back out into the warehouse and snap some more shots.

video demo of the vision Also forgive my ignorance(my knowledge on lights is really limited to ADJ elation not a whole lot more) but i have never seen what a S4 leko looks like. So maybe some pics of that fixture? Thanks.

Sincerely,

Lol, sorry, don't do videos. I leave that for my camera guys. I can send you a link of a simple little video thing I did a while back though.


An ETC Source Four Leko in all its glory, lol.


The cap or base of the fixture.


Looking down the back of the barrel where the cap sits.


Looking down the other end of the barrel back towards where the lamp sits. It actually pops through the hole in the middle, so the mirror sorounds the whole lamp and throws pretty much every bit of light down the barrel. One of the reasons for its great punch.


The lens tube. (some people call it the barrel when in fact it actually isn't, don't worry I do it too lol) One of the great parts about the S4 leko is the lens tubes are interchangable, making it easy to go from a 5 degree all the way up to a 90 degree.

I find shoot-outs like this to be some of the better was to make a point about what is and what isn't working. No guesswork, it comes right ot.

Dean's issue regarding the 64 LED Pros was also highly usable for the same reasons.

thanks a lot for those pictures. really helped.

it seems we may have a pretty good shot at funding, as we've struck the interest of a few large-ish companies.

so not putting price into your mind, what moving head fixture do you think would be best? it seems even a 575Watt fixture wouldnt be strong enough. i'm thinking double that. at least. if we were to get 2 moving head fixtures that can pump out 1,200W minimum, do you think that would be okay?

edit: I have been informed its a 10-15 thousand dollar budget for lights possibly

edit edit (sorry im thinking lots lol): on second thought, that 575 doesnt look THAT bad in red at 24 feet if you were to turn off the s4 maybe... gaahhh decisions. we would also settle for just white lights if need be. we're also getting a 7x10 foot led screen so its not like the lights will be the main event. it might work okay if we got four 575s and just used the white spots in them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Wings,

Power spot 700 II CMY from Elation. Hands down.

Read this: http://www.elationlighting.com...ssDetail.aspx?ID=153

Pics are here: http://www.elationlighting.com...etail.aspx?MainId=60

Serra don't you have experience with the 700's? Chime in if so.
Sincerely,

Yes, I do. The 700s will be even better, but two will eat through your whole budget however. With 10-15k to play with, you could get four 575 watt fixtures depending on type. 1200w fixtures are pretty much out of your price range completely minus the DS1200, see below. They also have another set of problems, like just about all of them need 208v vs 120v.

If you really want to bump up in power, I would go with the Design Spot 1200. they run about the same cost as a PS700 CMY, but brighter lamp and more features. Only issue is they need 208v to work. (Don't know why Elation didn't make them able to work on 120v like the 2k line can).

Its a tough call. The 575s will work, especially if you are talking about turning the lights off. In the shots above, I had a roll up door opened behind me. So it wasn't pitch black in the room. 700s or 1200s would be better though. 1200s are pretty much the brightest you can get right now in a normal size moving head. There are a few 1500w fixtures out there, but not many. You might also want to look into beam fixtures. The Design Beam 300 puts out 7 times light then a DS1200, but the size of the light is much smaller. Great for long distance stuff and added punch. Maybe a system like two DB300s and two DS575s. The 300s can take care of the stands and the 575s can take care of the rink.

I did a mini review on the DS575s. I love those things big time. Zoom, frost, two rotating gobo wheels, CMY, animation wheel. You just can't beat them at there price point. They have more features then a Mac 700 and cost less then half as much. The Mac 575 doesn't have near the features and costs twice as much. Let me know if you want to see some shots of a DS575. Great fixture.

I am not sure of the 208 voltage issue is an absolute problem.

A qualified electrician should be able to run that type of voltage and wiring up to and within code safety specs to the locations needed. The bigger issue is that if they go with the Design Spot 1200, would budget also allow the proper electrical work to be done? I think that would be a concern.

The issue is moot for "can it be done". The issue is really "If we go with the Design Spot 1200's, would we also be able to afford for the electrical work to be done".

Also, I am assuming that we're allowed to run 208v runs/circuits where needed.

A big show I was doing, the lighting company was showing off their new power distroy and dimmre packs. They had some socapex connections at 220 and some at 120, so they could run more variety of lights. Of course, they are pulling raw power off the building access transformers installed for events, and they are using their power converter/distro to provide the type of circuits they needed.

So, I think it could theoretically be done safely. However, I can not provide that information. A qualified electrician is the onl one who can answer that question, as well as maybe some government board to ensure they will allow that too so you don't waste time pulling a permit to get the work done. In fact, you may need to pull a permit anyways to get this job done regardless of the voltage being delivered where.

Just be safe about it.

Kind of a random thought: Would those Galaxian lasers be seen decently if we got a crap load of them (5 to 6). I was watching a video about them and thought those would be really unique, seeing as our main team color is red and stuff. Having them sound active would be wicked

Lasers work best in the dark with the room hazed out. An ice arena would take some time to haze out. When I was still doing work for IATSE, they would set a few of DF-50s and start them hours before the show started to get the room hazed out. Now I am sure you arena isn't as large as say the Wachovia Center here in Philly, but a few DF-50s a few hours to haze the place is still a lot.

The other issue with lasers is they can obviously be hazardous to eye health and can cause damage and/or blindness. You would have to take time to carefully aim them so as to make sure no one can look into them. Otherwise you are asking for a lawsuit.

It is a cool idea though, especially if the rink is rented out for parties and what not. Keep on thinking though, and we will keep helping if we can.

wings i agree with serra about the lasers. unless you pint them up towards the roof or down on the ice only. Why not post some pics of this rink so we may see whats all in there. if you havent done so yet that is.
Sincerely,

Here's a video I took a short while back... I panned back and forth around the arena.

http://s46.photobucket.com/alb...¤t=CPPLACE.flv

And some pictures:
http://s46.photobucket.com/alb...ent%20Point%20Place/

oh ok nice. Ya since the seats go all the way up to almost the top and considering the galaxian lasers all spread beams out all over the place you would need to point them on to the ice but then you have to worry about it reflecting off the ice.
Sincerely,

When I was doing a concert for ZZ Top in a 2000-seater venue, those boys had that place PACKED with fog super fast at the end of their show. We're talking DENSE thick fog. But it did clear fast, which was rather nice. Something like after 30 seconds you could see again mostly, and after about 2 minutes it was just haze.

Whatever the hell they used would be good for flooding the area fast with fog, or multiple smaller fog machines(ZZ Top used at least 2 units) placed in zones with nice high output BUT have remove control.

The problem with installed fog machines or hazers for that matter is the fact that you've got to get up there to refill them. Of course, you're gong to have to get up there to change bulbs from time to time too.

Here's a thought: Athletes don't like fog or haze, at least not where they play. It can play with their vision a little bit.

I totally hear what Jingles is saying about having to "haze up" the place to get ready for this. It's true, you have to run those things for a while, but it also lingers a bit so you'll want to crank any fans or climate control after your intro stuff to clear it out..

Now, in regards to your ice itself, you are painting one of the lower layers before laying the ice on thick, right? You shouldn't have to worry about the ice reflecting much and it should look halfway decent.

But right now there's too much lack of decision and vision. I think you need to start to go in a definitive direction. Think "what do we want to do now vs in a while(year or longer)" and make purchases that go towards that goal.