The hockey team I DJ for is heavily considering getting 2 DJ Spot 250's and a fogger/strobe light to start. Our roof is a good 50 feet high, HOWEVER, there are beams that go across that are only about 25 feet high from the ground. I'm thinking maybe we should mount them on those. My only concern is that it's too low and the picture the gobo produces (it will be a red wing logo, same as detroits) will be too small. My question is, is there a type of lense to magnify the picture? Or would we have to mount the lights on the roof 50 feet up and aim them between the beams so there's no shadow line going through the picture lol.

Thanks a million!

you also have to factor in the limitations of your lamp source, which is a halogen in the case of the dj spot 250's. So if your projecting a halogen 250 Watt lamp from 25 feet up it wont be that bright. If you go up to 50 feet that is a great decrease in lumens and i hope the place is dark if these are on.Cause at 50 feet your not gonna get much output. Consider perhaps a accu spot 250 or even 300?
Sincerely,

When you use a lense to magnify the image(say, a DLP projector using a short-throw lens), you lose a lot of light as the nature of how that works.

I'd step up and see if there is an Elation product that offers gobo projection with movement. I mention the Elation product mainly since you'll end up with a higher amount of light output, and you stay within the ADJ company. You want that higher output. It costs more, you need it.

I have to agree. A 250w halogen source from 25' up in the air, projecting a mostly red gobo (I assume red with a white wing) is not going to show very much. Even a 250w discharge might not be all that useful.


This is a shot of a show I did for a high school this past spring, Bye Bye Birdie. This shot has one DS575 stage left (right side of the shot) with a R55ish lavender in it. Stage right, the stage is lit with 4 575w Extended Life S4 19 degree lekos in R68. Now, if I did my math right, a 575w Extended Life 19 degree S4 leko is 177 FC at 32.8'. A 20 degree Design Spot 250 is 520 FC at 32.8'. So, if a DS250 was using R68, it would be a little brighter in that picture theoretically and slightly larger beam as one section (lights are split down the middle).

Now the red on Rosa (girl in the Red and black dress) is coming from a 15 degree irised down DS575. It punches through the blue, but if it was a DS250, you probably wouldn't see it at less then half the brightness. That red should be fairly similar to the red in your gobo I am sure. That is from roughly 15' away.

So as you can see, 250w discharge source might not be enough either. The one saving grace though is I assume they will be projected onto ice, which is white vs the colored stuff the lights in the picture above are projecting on. Therefor, I would recommend at least a 250w discharge source from a height of 25' if not a 300w or 575w. If looking for a larger beam, you will need a more powerful source. As you increase in size, intensity decreases in proportion to that size increase. Maybe get on 575w fixture to start vs 2 250w fixtures? See if you can get a demo from a dealer in your area too to make sure they will do what you need them to do as well.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SerraAva,

My thoughts are that because this sounds more like a facilities type installation, the following thought occured to me:

Chances are this rink is used for more than just hockey. Probably skating practice and events, "skate nights" and other "like a roller skating rink" type applications. Except, one roller skating rink I have done some events at also uses the floor for basketball(with and without skates).

I'm thinking that there may be birthday parties and other type of events occuring at this rink.

Also, because of the location of these fixtures with that type of height, I'm thinking permanent install. With a gobo wheel with multiple applicable gobos in place on the gobo wheel for "most events", this also is very conducive to a permanent install application. Add to that either a super long DMX cable installed and terminated at a wall panel, to which anyone could attach any controller to run those fixtures(including MyDMX) or else use an Elation Wireless DMX solution and have that receiver mounted up there with the lights.

As far as fog machines go, what is the best place to mount those? No clue. I do think you're going to need an extremely high output unit to make this effect look decent, probably pointing straight down. I guess you could use a couple of relay or switching packs to run some fans if you want to help the fog spread out faster. I'm not sure if you're going for a one-off effect or not, and how others will want to use this. Plus, you are going to need to have access to the fog machine because it is going to run out of juice at some point in time.

I think the fog coming from the top would look cooler than say, from the sides of the rink. Then again, you could have two AV-type carts with power plugs on each side of the rink with an injection site so you can access the rink itself, and fire them off, either via some operators or remote DMX control Using wired DMX, you're spending way too much on cabling. Using a wireless solution, now you're spending an awful lot on receivers

Purchases like this seem to me like they should fall on the shoulders of facilities management/ownership. It's not practical(or is it) to have a tall enough ladder and mount/remove this stuff on a nightly basis and running a DMX cable would be a real pain(making the wireless DMX solution even more essential). Even with a genie lift(which would be a lot safer), I can't say with any sort of certainty how many venue facilities people would allow such a heavy vehicle onto the ice. The ice is over concrete, but still, there is the possibility that the ice could crush or crack and cause some safety issues to those who actually skate on the ice. Thena gain, this ice damage thing could just be paranoia on my part.

I think what is wanted to be accomplished is absolutely do-able, but not necessarily with the gear you've selected. I think some higher output fixtures, a big fog machine with high output and a wired or wireless DMX solution are the way to go. The multiple gobo for multiple occasions idea only helps sell the owners on the concept of them buying it themselves.

Thanks a lot for the replies. I've notified the people who are working with me on this project about a lot of the previously stated info. We've decided NOT to go with the custom gobo and just have red and white spots going around the arena. We've also decided to bump up to an accuspot 250 instead of dj spot.

I'd bump it a bit higher.

I do this one scene using my 150-watt Chauvet Q-Spot 150's, and while it's bright enough, I'm fairly sure my throw is a lot less than yours, but I have the benefit of a darkened room(but you may have the same advantage). I also have to use them for additional fill during other parts of the same event.

You get the advantage of fog, where I do not.

On the plus side, you're picking a fixture where you can replace the gobos. This is good. You can go ahead and get the fixtures, and when you're ready, you can have some custom gobos made and then simply(for lack of a better term) replace the gobo(s) you don't want and replace them with the new custom ones. This is much better than picking a fixture that can't really "grow" to where you want it later.

I'm sure custom gobos won't cost all that much. Considering if you choose your events wisely for the gobos, you can use that to market renting the facilities for other events.

I will also have the benefit of a darkened room. We will be turning the lights out.
To give you an idea of how high these gobo lights are gonna be, here's a quick video of our arena (sort of lol).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlqIgkdnA8U
The accuspots would be just under the lights you see in the video. I'm fairly confident 250 II's would get the job done

See if you can rent or borrow one for a trial. You can try this whenever. You'd know really fast.

SerraAva might have a better suggestion. I still think brighter would be better. Yes, your advantage of a darkened rink helps a lot but I think you're just not going to exactly get what you're looking for out of a 250.

Based on the video, it will be a close call. Are you looking to just hit the ice and only your team's half, the whole rink, or the whole arena? 250s will not do the whole arena and certainly not 2. The whole ice rink, that pushing the limit. Just your team's half, they will work but turning off the lights, particularly mercury/sodium vapors with a long warm up cycle, might be a problem because again, 2 250s won't light up the whole arena, especially if dropping a red color in them. I have issues with 700w arc lamps not giving me the punch I want with darker colors like reds, blues, and purples.

When I get back from my trip next week, I will take out the Vision 250s I have and put them next to the Power Spot 575s that I have. (Corporate is dead in the summer, so I get time to play/clean up/fix gear) Not 100% fair since one is moving mirror and other moving head, but you will get the idea. I will do a few different colors as well as distances of 12' (more ideal for 250s), 24' (up limit of 250s) and possibly longer, say like 30' or even 36' to see that at that distance (you will have throws much greater then 36' if trying to cover the arena) that 250s just don't cut it at all, even in white, and 575s start having issues. I will also use a 575w 19 degree Source Four leko for control, and so you can see that 250w halogen sources would have been a complete waste. I would use a 375w for closer comparison, put I don't stock any 375w HPLs (who does lol).

You also talked about increasing the size of the beam with optional 19 degree lenses I assume. Remember that as you increase in size, intensity falls off in proportion to that size increase. This effectively makes the lights even less powerful at longer distances.

Given the choice, which technology is typically brighter:

Moving mirror or moving head?

Or is this a wash? Both use a lens anyways.

I'm assuming moving head only because there is less stuff between the light and the eventual target. There has to be some amount of loss using a mirror, especially at these levels. WE're not talking about a Hubbel space telescope mirror that is the heart of the unit type reflectivity.

Moving Head is brighter. Light is lost when the beam is bounced off the mirror vs just shooting out the lens. Granted, optics play a bigger role. The Mac 550 and its 400w lamp can keep up with poorer optic quality lights with 575w lamps. The Mac 500 it replaced had a 575w lamp but the Mac 550 is brighter then it side by side.

Moving mirror is better in some spots because they are quicker. Basic physics, less mass to move means it can accelerate quicker. Moving mirror's motors also don't have to be as large, so they are physically lighter and smaller as well generally.

Mirrors are going the way of the dinosaur now though, because moving heads cover a far greater range which is what most big time designers are looking for now. Get the most out of each light. Cutting your movement to about a 1/3 quicker movement speed is not something many are will to sacrifice.

I can totally see your point about moving mass and speed issues. We're talking basic physics there.

Today, motors are becoming more powerful and quicker(and in some cases smaller). Of course, then we have to talk about compliance issues so when you're whipping that head around and you hit that mark it doesn't jar itself coming to a screeching halt. Some moving heads are relatively fast. Of course, they are fairly lightweight as well. My Chauvet Q-Spot 150's, as much as I may dislike certain aspects of them, move MORE THAN fast enough to suit me. But again, we're talkng a fairly lightweight fixture. Seems most of the weight is the base to keep it in place.

I personally can't see myself sacrificing where I can put the beam of light using a moving head over the speed and placement limitations of a mirror. I can also get a higher range of movement out of a moving head. But if I just needed to aim stuff say out into a dance floor, a mirror fixture could work fine for me.

Serra i would love to the see the visions. they were always my favortie scanner form elation and are now discontinued. Sadly i have never gotten to play with one, Also i heard of talk of increasing the beam angle for a accu 250? That wont work mind you will also void any warranty.

Sincerely,

On the page for the Accu Spot 250 II, it says you can order 19 degree lenses separate with them. Factory options/parts/accessories wouldn't void the warranty I would hope.

"Optional 19° beam angle: create larger gobo pattern on dance floors for low ceiling installations - sold separately "

With regards to the Vision 250s, I like them a whole lot more then Trackspots. I hate Trackspots with a passion. They are work horses, but I always have issues with them. I had to have one of my guys stand by with a mic stand to literally hit the DMX connection on the one Trackspot because it would cut out intermittently and cause loss of data down the chain. I don't think I will ever get rid of the 250s now since they stopped making them. I use moving mirror a lot for prom parties/DJ parties. The faster speed works wonders when combined with some moving heads. And the target is really only the dance floor.

Oh I forgot about the option for 19 degree. i apologize. And no factory wont void any warranty.

Sincerely,

When your target is a dance floor, you can get away with a lot.

I have my Electra, Reflex, Barrel Flex and Rover II, which are all mirror-type High-tech FX. That seems to make the dancers happy. Needs fog though and I rarely run fog.

We're looking for the whole rink to be lit up... In a way. What we want is basically for the lights to scan the ice and crowd, similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq-_NepYnwE

Not sure what kind of lights are being used, but we're looking for that kind of brightness.

And our sulpher lights take 4 mins to turn back on, so by the time the announcer announces starting lineups and we do the national anthem and whatnot, they would be on by the time the game starts

Those are definately moving heads. Higher costs for sure, but you can see you can get a brighter beam.

It's worth the costs, in my opinion. You might have to jump to Elation lighting, which might be a good investment.

By the way, those videos are great examples and I feel are really helping drive answers for you.

Unfortunately we have a budget of no more than $5,000. I happened to stumble apon a 4-pack of accu spot 300's for $4,500. I'm tempted to go with those. Just gotta find some funding haha.