Is there such a thing as a remote-steerable high-intensity spotlight with color-change options?

In our small-town K-12 public school gymnaseum/stage setup, there is no designed-in crows nest for spotlight operators, and catwalks would be simply out of the question for use by students.

What's been done so far is to set up a scaffold say 10ft high and strap a floor spot to the boards with someone up there. Though this is a pain to set up, so it's been on a low 4ft stand lately just to get the spot over the audience, but it ends up blinding the actors since it is essentially shining straight-on into their faces.

I am thinking that this could be solved with a ceiling mount remote-control steerable spot with actuator motors to open/close the iris and solenoids to swing in/out the color-gels. Just need to have a joystick controller in the hands of an operator in the front row, with analog knobs to set iris size and switches for the gel selection.

This does not need to be DMX. I don't think DMX would work anyway since the protocol only has 8-bit precision. A spot 50 ft from the stage with only 256 steps and 360-degree rotation may not have good enough rotational targeting accuracy.

- Dale

There is not a whole lot like what you are asking for out there and if there is it isnt gonna be cheap.
Sincerely,

If you're using the spot right, then you SHOULD be blinding the actors. They just get used to it. Be a pro. Deal. Move on.

No, seriously though. Even if you went with something that could be remote controlled via DMX, you can find stuff with 16 bit control, but even 8 bit is fine, you just don't have "fine control", which is OK. But this isn't cheap.

In a venue I worked with for 2 years(don't get me started, the whole thing was a con job unfortunately. The venue was/is crooked), at every show, there was at least a 12-15 foot scaffold erected for follow spot operators with up to 4 spots(2 per tower).

For safety and insurance reasons, I don't think you're gonna get better than a 4-foot platform, otherwise your district is gonna poop themselves at the thought of some kid falling off and hurting themselves seriously.

Your best bet is to see about having crows nests built properly and putting some spots up there permanently, or else maybe just build a room near the top that is fairly wide and have your spot operators work from there. At a school theater(junior college), they had two spot operators up in that room(along with me doing sound) and it worked fine. I didn't like the small opening to get into each night and the ladder permanently attached to the wall, but it was perfectly sound and safe.

Another idea might be to get a genie-type lift and use that for events, but personally, as safe as those may be, I wouldn't want to do that. Maybe to help errect scaffolds and move gear up, but not for the show itself.

You're unfortunately not in a win-win position. To do what you want is possible via gear, but it ain't cheap. To do it permanently and safely requires stuff to be built, and with all the crap you're gonna have to deal with, again, ain't gonna be cheap, but the hardware will cost a lot less!

The 10-foot scaffold is your best idea. I hear your pain, but as you know, the show must go on. And if it was my show, I wouldn't be taking any crap and have my crew setting that PITA 10-foot scaffold and be happy do be doing it.

Oh, and you're NOT going to want your operator in the front row. Just not a good position. Back of room is better.

I'm getting my older show pictures from that rotten venue up. Plenty of good snaps of lighting gear as well as sound gear and stage gear.

As far as spotlight options:
You get what you pay for, but you're also going to need 2-axis movement(side/side swivel, up/down tilt). Not sure what kind of costs for those extra items. But, with spots, my spots only have dimmer and color wheel choices, but an operator can adjust focus and iris. Thank goodness there is a full manual control option. I'm fairly sure some of the better spots with DMX control have things like focus and iris control. Typically though, I see a spot operator physically at the control with a ClearCom headset on taking instructions from the lighting director(who may or may not have some control over the light).

As usual, the key to finding things on the Internet is to know the lingo used by various industry niche groups.

I've discovered that the industry-specific term for what I am looking for, is referred to as an "auto yoke" or "moving yoke" and searching for "auto yoke" spot or "moving yoke" spot takes me directly to some options, including some from C*****t, and your own Power Spot 250..

Yeouch, expensive hardware. I think we'll be replacing all the old par cans with 64 LED Pros before we touch something that expensive. But fortunately I see 16-bit DMX positioning is available for far finer control than 8-bit DMX can offer.

- Dale

Continuing my research on this, I would tend to assume that any DMX controller with a pan/tilt joystick is capable of steering a movable yoke spot.

If so then I would expect that the Power Spot 250 could be paired with the Magic 260, and the Power Spot controlled live, on the fly with the Magic 260 as an analog controller.


Another possible option is to use the MyDMX USB to DMX controller paired with an old 400mhz laptop and a gaming flight-control joystick, though so far I have not yet found a PC-joystick to DMX manual-control software package.

Oh well maybe someone will write a flight joystick spot controller program to do this, by the time we can afford the moving yoke spots. *nudge nudge*

- Dale

There are other options as well...

Such technology exists that involves the used of belt packs, installed stage sensors, and a moving head light to act as a follow spot.

The performers wear the belt packs and the sensors triangulate their position on stage and feed that information to the DMX controller and fixture. As a result, the light always aims for the performer with the belt pack.

You would obviously need a few belt packs for the important performers requiring spots and a method for switching between which pack the light will look for (on and off too).

Manual control of a fixture is an option, but I'm not sure how well the movements will turn out. It would take a lot of time and practice to get it looking decent, but if you're up to the challenge, it could work.

Gels wouldn't be much of an option, but I have seen automated "par can" style fixtures that operate like a moving head, except without colors, gobos, etc.

The scaffolding is probably the easiest and most effective way to go. Sure, hauling the lights up there is not going to be fun, but without a permanently installed spot tower, it's just what needs to be done.

Ideally, as Chris said, having something permanently installed would be the best route and would likely be the best investment for the long term.

I like your line of thinking though about making your own automated fixture. Sure, companies make things similar to that, but there's just something more satisfying about making something yourself. Plus, you learn a lot at the same time while figuring it all out.

Best,
-Tech

dude WHERE have u been Ligtech? lol been a long time since i seen you here.
Sincerely,

Putting MyDMX on a 400Mhz laptop? Wow, talk about not working out very well. The specs for MyDMX are a bit more "demanding"

What I might suggest is though, still going with your thought process of MyDMX on a low-end 1.4Ghz laptop(which can be had for under $400 these days), and then some sort of secondary DMX controller for manual control. I've seen with practice, people who can have total control over something with simple controllers, it just takes practice, which it sounds like you're not above putting the time into. There are DMX merging devices or you can run a secondary DMX cabling. But, the biggest issue I would concern myself about would be "are we pointing one or more spots at one target, and if so, we have to consolidate them into a corrected ZERO position and then have manual control move lights based on adjusted zero(say, stage dead center), or do we have multiple spots tracking multiple performers? Then it gets messy and then again, full on manual control becomes preferable.

I've had events where spots would have to be aimed ALL at one performer, and then aimed at different performers. I suppose it's probably so the stage artists can put on some higher SPF sunscreen between songs so they move off onto other people on the stage!

The remote sensor stuff works, it's proven, but you have to deal with batteries and making sure the packs are well marked and programmed properly. This is mainly up front work. Once done, you make sure the right packs go to the right performers, and that's the stage manager's job.

Another option is lots of par cans aimed at different locations for a similar purpose, but after a couple of changes, this becomes very distracting to the audience. It works, but I don't think it's a viable option. It's not like doing a CHANGE where you're moving focus from Point X to Point Y in a totally different area of the stage, which makes my idea more viable. For tracking performers around a stage, my idea isn't good. Requires a lot of tight coordination and if the actor doesn't move just right, then that next scene is ruined and it will only get worse, unless you're doing "moving by numbers" with little labelled markers all over the floor.

Related topic on a show without funding issues. Or rather two.
Seen two shows rather recently. Both are Disney productions. Well, I could bump that to 5 if I wanted to. Anyhow, the "Finding Nemo: The Musical" at Disney's Animal Kingdom, is of course heavily automated. Mixing, FX and MOST lighting is all automated, but there is manual operation to move from "scene to scene" or rather song to song. You don't want to be so tight where you can not have any leeway. It's sort of like playing a CD in "single" mode, and then you have to then push play again to get the next song to go.
Likewise, at Disney's California Adventure Park, the Aladdin show was run a lot looser as there is less singing and dancing but still has lots of tech including the carpet flying over the audience(and actors wearing safety straps in case of impromptu bunjee-jumping!).

Where are the spots? Run by humans. A show that runs the same day after day after day(after day) still gets manual spot operations.

Disney on Ice: Manual spot operations.

Kenny Loggins and Chicago, to get back to more mainstream stuff: Both use a lot of intels in their shows, in many cases using moving yokes AS spots. With Kenny Loggins, it's not a big deal since they tend to stay put more or less. They set the spots, locked them down, and then let DMX control handle the rest(dim). With Chicago, they move around a lot. In their case, the movers are used to spot the keyboardist(who moves to front and center on guitar) and the drummer since they aren't exactly scooting all over the place. Even with the heavy automation, manual spot operators were still used.

ZZ Top: 3 days, 3 positions, virually NO movement. Not to say they don't put on a good show, but they didn't bring up their famous hot rod and didn't parade a set of leggy babes out through it. Mainly because the stage couldn't support that kind of weight(the cars, not the girls... well, never know, but I doubt they are chub chasers). Manual spots on the front men, but movers aimed at the drummer.

Paul Simon in 1991, the day before the first gulf war fighting broke out, two spot operators perched in little nests hanging off the front trussing, maybe suspended 15-20 feet out from the stage AND above the audience. Not where I'd want to be.

In fact, I can't think of a show where absolutely everything was automated. Never the follow spots.

My thoughts are that despite the fact that you have to feed them and pay them, people tend to do the job better in this case. Also, chances are these are student productions, right? Students work for cheap(or is that free?) Use it.

But I'm not sure how open minded the school district would be to making permanent building modifications. Out here in California, there are serious budget cuts in schools, even though the Governator said that wouldn't happen. In elementary school, my school had leaking roofs, but the district wouldn't address that because we're on the painting list, despite having been recently painted, we're getting painted again. They had to wait a few more years to get the roofs fixed. Please, I hope your school districts don't employ such blatant stupidity.

If it was me, I'd go manual operations. Unless the operator has been drinking and/or getting stoned, you're pretty much safe.

I think the ideas with technology are well and good. This stuff is proven to work and it is in widespread application on high-spending shows. I love technology, but I have my limits. You need to have fail-over practices in place in case your technology fails. Plus, we're talking K-12 productions with no budget.The money is best spent in durable gear that can be used a good long time and cost-effective and safe solutions. I don't think spending all this extra money on extreme automation is wise.

However, don't let that stop you. You never know what may be approved. The squeaky wheel gets the grease(or in my school district: greased so they shut you up once and for all!)

Depending on how your buildings are designed, such additions might not be as major of an undertaking as might be suggested. Thinking back to my elementary school, based on the stage location, this wouldn't work. Going to my junior high school, since the stage was on the other side of the band room, it could work. At my high school, they did plays in the same room as band, and it would not have worked, but even if they moved it to the stage in the "small gym", it could have worked because the back of that gym backed to the parking lot area and there was sufficient room to add sufficient construction to add such locations..

I believe I have found a way to use a Joystick with My DMX.

The MyDMX manual says it can be controlled using "any standard MIDI controller"


It appears there are software packages to turn joystick motion into MIDI controller commands..


MJOY - a joystick to MIDI advanced controller
http://www.otk.it/mjoy/


also

MIJOY PRO 3 - VSTi MIDI plug-in that allows you to use a joystick or gamepad as a MIDI controller.
http://www.virtuasonic.com/mijoypro.htm

(free 1-plugin VSTIi host platform)
http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm

What about something like the Korg kaoss type controllers? I guess that would be good if you want a smaller surface. Personally, I think an actual joystick would be a bit better for a tactile interface. BUT, consider this:

When you let go, is is the light going to return to zero? I guess that would depend on the joystick and loosening up the locks/springs, but then what about it flopping around like a chicken with it's head cut off?

I have the fancy Microsoft Sidewinder with forcefeedback. When I'm gaming, I want that bad boy to return to ZERO. When I'm playing MechWarrior, I need that feature, but that would be a killer in a lighting application. But now that I don't use a dedicated joystick port anymore, I have to get the USB version, which sort of killed MechWarrior4 for me and broke me of the whole Mechwarrior series. Also, my older version(not even 6 months old at the time) joystock was not properly supported anymore. What a rip!

I think the idea of a joystick is the better solution, but I worry about the release issues. I would say that for controlling for programming, yeah, sure, good way to go. Especially for stage productions where actors have to hit their marks.

Another thought I have. Some other guy came up with using these cheap Korg nano controllers with MyDMX, so I started researching it more. Korg makes a fader and knob controller, a pad trigger controller and a keyboard controller. I would think that based on HOW I think and work, that having the knob/fader controller would be pretty good. I can use the fader for up/down and can assign that to a DMX channel(assuming that this remote motor system operates on DMX), and a knob to another DMX channel. I can relate the up/down to the fader, while the side/side to the knob. What I like about this is that when you let go, it stays put. Definately a plus. But that is ASSUMING the motor system works via DMX.

But that's where the Kaoss controllers come into mind again. They are basically a user defined control surface. You let go and that is the value it keeps working off of, at least that's how I've come to understand it. I know DJ's have used it for pitch bending/tempo/speed tweaking. I know musicians who have used it for tunings, pannings and more. Not sure what the costs are. I think they come in different sizes. The main thing is to be able to have X and Y data to be send independently as different control data sets, which I also think it does. Just a matter of bit addressing the words. I've never used one myself but they've been around for years.

IF you're gonna add a DMX chipset/controller to a servos, you're gonna want to use at least 270 degrees for up/down movement, and a least 360 degrees of side/side(maybe 540 degrees).

I also don't think the joystick controller on most keyboards(except vector control joys, not pitch/mod joys) is a viable option, mainly because they normally return to ZERO.

What might be cool is the viability of programming an off-set. Say, put both spots on stage center from two different angles, then be able to use that joystick to track together on the entire stage using 1 joystick as a master control. Might be a bit advanced of an application for the target audience of MyDMX to need.

To me, the ideal controller is the Playstation 2 dual-stick joypad. (I already have a USB adapter to plug them into a PC.)

Basically what I want, is that when the joystick pops back to the centered position, the light just simply stops moving and holds steady.

Pushing the joystick a little makes the light move slowly, push further and motion accelerates, until it reaches the outside bounding box of the axis motors.

X-Y of stick 1: Pitch/Yaw
X of stick 2: beam diameter
Y of stick 2: beam fader
L1 - color #1, toggle in/out
L2 - color #2, toggle in/out
R1 - color #3, toggle in/out
R2 - color #4, toggle in/out
Button of Stick 1 - color #5, toggle in/out
Button of Stick 2 - color #6, toggle in/out
Select - color #7, toggle in/out
Start - color #8, toggle in/out

- Dale

Sounds fairly logical. I'm not sure if MyDMX supports a joystick controller. Even if it does, my MS Side Winder Pro Force Feedback uses the 15-pin connection and I don't have one on my current computer unless I go to an older but great sound card, but alas, I am out of PCI slots since everyone seems to think we're all going to PCI-E now! Grrrrrr.....

Now, assuming that MyDMX can use joytstick input, and the USB adaptor is designed for a PC(what, does the PS3 use USB for controllers? I don't know, got no love for the Sony systems so I don't follow them), and hte controller is recognized as a joystick input controller, then I think you'd be well on your way to success.

I think the issue comes to when you release and what happens then. For example, both my 24 year old Wacom Arcade Stick(a stick with 2 buttons and is apparently industrial strength) snaps back to CENTER when you let go. My MS Sidewinder Pro FFB will also return to ZERO upon release, but I note that when I was playing games like MechWarrior, releasing gave me the desired effect I wanted/needed.

What I'm afraid will happen is that when you release the stick, then your fixture is going to probably return to ZERO. But I see where you're going and it does make sense. If the joystick is in motion and working as you describe(which makes logical sense to me), a lack of motion(as in via release) SHOULD theoretically STOP that communication, NOT "go to zero". I don't know. THe only way I would think to do this would be to say make a moving head fader or use an existing profile and assign the various controller pad functions to MyDMX and associated channels. If you can get that kind of control, then it's really safe to say that assuming you find the motors that work on DMX control and can be addressed, then there's no valid reason why this wouldn't work.

I do have a suggestion:
I know the PS controllers have 2 sticks on them. Why not use 1 for X and 1 for Y. I do think a single stick would be fine though as it's totally possible to assign both X and Y to the stick at once since it is after all a 2-axis control.

I have other suggestions:
I feel that perhaps buttons would be more suited for things like say focus(if you have remote control of it), beam/iris size, and color wheel, gobo and dimming. I just personally feel that putting iris and dimming on the other stick might be a bit too sloppy even with practice, and would be better dealt with via buttons, or just assign something like dummer or just iris to the other stick.

So, to recap. I'd suggest seeing what you can assign and get working via the 3D Visualizer and some sort of moving yoke fixture. That tests your theory. If that works, then excuse the pun, but the rest is academic after that.

I think your biggest issue might be finding not only the dial axis motors, but also a cost-effective spotlight that supports a FULL range of features. My spots have color wheel, dimming and that's it for "remote control". The rest of course must be done by some flesh and blood droid. Focus and iris of course have to be manually controlled. I see no reason why focus and iris can not be automated, and I'm sure higher end fixtures can do this via DMX. I don't think any of those "wishes" are anything new or original. Heck, even adding a gobo wheel with even gobo rotation/spin has been done as well too.

I think your key is finding a 2-channel 2-axis DMX motorized mounting system that is rated for 3-5 times what the fixture you intend to mount on it is, and is also designed to be fitted to a structure(or is safe to be done, not all may be). I think that's the hardest thing to find. You might want to call your local pro lighting production company and have them direct you on the right path for that. I think fighting the spotlight with the features you want may be a bit of a challenge as well, but not as much as finding that first component. Again, that lighting company might put you in the right direction.

But, here's another idea, because we're all wasting time here. Why not get a moving head light with a really high output and a controllable beam? This gives you want you want, in a compact package, and we're not re-inventing the wheel. I'd seen shows where yes, they do use spots, but they also used movers to act as spots as well. If you don't go with a "moving head WASH light", then you're already in the right direction. You'd definately want remote control over focus and beam width and iris(which may be different), and DIMMING!!!! This can let you turn the bulb off and prevent having to go reach for the sky too often!

I think you'd need to look towards Elation to find something more appropriate for your aplication. I think a moving head is better suited. Many can be mounted to a structure. What I would then suggest is to get some square trussing, mount that securely to the building via multiple points, and yes, use safety cables there IF it can be done. Of course then mount your fixtures to that trussing and of course DO NOT forget your safety cables on those.

You may also end up with multiple trusses. Say, a truss 10-feet in front of the stage for your fills, one at the rear for your back-fill, and then maybe one anywhere from 20-50 feet or more from the front for your "spots".

I am guessing, but perhaps by using the moving heads and the assumption that "ZERO" on the stick doesn't go to ZERO DMX values, assigning multiple moving heads to a location on stage, and then manipulating the heads I suspect may make them all move more or less in unison, since the off-set is already set in the scene by the position. You can then assign different stops in the scene if you're tracking someone. This is where glow-tape on the stage as marks can really help performers hit their marks properly.